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    Is this the temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4?

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    metaloop
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    Is this the temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4?

    Post by metaloop on Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:35 am

    2 Thessalonians 2:4
    Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessional
    After Vatican II, the Sacrament of Penance was revised so that it more clearly expresses both the nature and effect of the sacrament (Sacrosanctum Concilium, 72). To facilitate this, face-to-face confession has been allowed. To accommodate this new form of the sacrament, many confessionals now comprise just one room. There is a screen and a kneeler to kneel on so the penitent can confess anonymously, but there is also a chair that the penitent may sit on and face the priest. In some confessionals, there may also be a chair behind the kneeler so that penitents who, due to old age or medical conditions, cannot kneel, can sit but still confess anonymously.

    This change was official since Vatican II, but you still had heavy use of the confessionals twenty years ago. Why? Because that's what the congregations were accustomed to. My very first confession as a second-grader was in one of these confessionals. It was very dark and silent. I was comfortable laying it all out on the table in such a private environment.

    But that was also the last time I had the sacrament of reconciliation in a closed confessional. The next time, it was in an open room. I could clearly see the priest, and he could see me. No more privacy. It was a very uncomfortable experience.

    As time passed, I got more and more used to it. Eventually, even the screen was used less often. It was desensitizing.

    What they did was condition for face-to-face starting with a generation of children. These kids have been raised outside of the closed confessionals. It's all they really know. The older members of the congregation have been forced outside of their comfort zone into conformity. Now everyone sits face-to-face with the one that sits as god.

    They look him in the eye and confess their sins, and his reply says the he is God. This is exactly what Paul was talking about.
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    Re: Is this the temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4?

    Post by michael144/Admin on Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:52 am

    WOW! [tell us exactly what the priest says....] You, now knowing who the beast and little horn is because of history, answered your own question. Good witness here from first hand accounts of the blasphemy.
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    Re: Is this the temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4?

    Post by michael144/Admin on Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:59 am

    Strangly enough I found this article right after replying to this post.

    Inside Mel Gibson's Church
    By Natasha Stoynoff
    Originally posted Thursday April 16, 2009 10:00 AM EDT

    Mel Gibson
    He made a blockbuster film about Jesus and even built his own church on a mountain. So just how Catholic is Mel Gibson?


    The actor has been very vocal about his "traditionalist" views,
    adhering to the Roman Catholic faith as it was understood before the
    "modernization" by the Second Vatican Council of 1962-1965. ''I go to
    an all-pre-Vatican II Latin mass," he told USA Today in 2001.
    "There was a lot of talk, particularly in the '60s, of 'Wow, we've got
    to change with the times.' But the Creator instituted something very
    specific, and we can't just go change it.''

    Article continues
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    metaloop
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    Re: Is this the temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4?

    Post by metaloop on Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:17 pm

    The priest starts after you kneel and get situated. It starts with the sign of the cross, where he says "In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit." (Everything Catholic starts there.)

    Then he goes into a general greeting. I don't remember exact words, but it seems like it varied from priest to priest. He gets to a point where he stops talking.

    This can throw you off if you don't know what comes next. But of course, you're supposed to know what comes next.

    At that point, you're supposed to say, "Bless me father, for I have sinned. It has been ___ since my last confession." (You're supposed to state an approximate time in that blank spot.)

    Then you go into your sins. You're supposed to confess everything. It's a free-form period, so you can speak plainly. At points throughout, the priest might even dialog with you. Perhaps about the sin, or the situation, or whatever. It varies.

    When you're done, you can either say so, or just stop talking and the priest will take the cue.

    (BTW, If you're visiting another church, or the priest is a guest to the church, or you don't know the priest for whatever reason, this sacrament closely follows the book. But if you know each other, and are more comfortable, it may be more casual in dialogue. It also depends on the personality of the priest. And yes, you get some Catholics that prefer to confess to Father So-in-so, because they like the way he performs the sacrament. So there are lots of variables, and it does follow the same basic pattern, but things do vary.)

    So now that you've spilled the beans, it's time for the priest to give penance. Penance is something that you're supposed to do to make amends, or make right what you made wrong by your sin. If one of your sins was stealing from a neighbor, the priest may make part of your penance returning the stolen item. If one of your sins was taking the Lord's name in vain, part of your penance may be to say 3 Our Fathers.

    I can tell you that in all my years of going to confession, I confessed a wide variety of sins. To a great number of different priests. And not once did any of my penances extend beyond saying a certain number of certain prayers. Don't take that the wrong way--I confessed some notable sins in my time. That's the interesting part. It's like the penance remained relatively constant, regardless of what was confessed. Perhaps it was just me, but somehow I doubt it...

    After you're told your penance, you're then supposed to say the Act of Contrition. It's a prayer. You can google it if you'd like. The priest gives you absolution, which is where he basically says that you are forgiven. You are then free to go.

    You're supposed to do your penance as soon as possible. Most of the time, it involves (or is entirely) prayer, so you would go to a pew after leaving the confessional room, kneel, and say your prayers.

    And that's pretty much it.
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    Re: Is this the temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4?

    Post by michael144/Admin on Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:09 pm

    They look him in the eye and confess their sins, and his reply says the he is God. This is exactly what Paul was talking about.

    The above is what got my attention. Explain that.
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    Re: Is this the temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4?

    Post by metaloop on Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:51 pm

    There is something very important that you must understand, and that is, that which the Catholic church teaches is not always what Catholic people believe. Sometimes there is a disconnect, and one side can and does influence the other.

    Take, for example, the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Most laypeople have not studied, let alone read in its entirety, the Catechism.

    Therefore, it is not at all uncommon to encounter a layperson that is not educated on the official position of the Catholic church.

    The official teaching of the Catholic church is that the priest does not forgive sins himself, but rather, God can and does use the priest to forgive sins. Their doctrine on this gets very deep, and you can research it if you'd like.

    My point is that the actual perceptions and beliefs of your average layperson differ from Catholic doctrine.

    The average layperson is made to feel that the act of confessing directly to God, and asking for forgiveness directly from God (in prayer, of course) is insufficient. It's not good enough. It's not all that is required. It's almost as if such prayers for forgiveness aren't even heard by God.

    What is needed (still from the perspective of the average layperson) is a priest. The priest is the intercessor. He represents God the father, there in that confessional room, listening to your confession.

    Without that priest hearing your confession, administering the official sacrament of Reconciliation, you will not be forgiven of your sins. And if you should die after committing a mortal sin that you have not confessed in Reconciliation, your soul is damned.

    What you end up with is a person (now speaking from personal experience) that is simply afraid. Too afraid to dare approach a God personally, and ask for forgiveness personally. So I didn't ask for forgiveness in prayer. Not outside of the sacrament of Reconciliation, that is. And yes, the Act of Contrition is recited quite a bit (especially in Catholic schools, where the students usually say it daily). But looking back, I wonder what the point was. Because we were also taught that for true forgiveness, we had to go to the confessional.

    That's not the only discrepancy. There are tons. And that's where the whole house of cards starts getting weak. And if you ask too many questions, you run up against a wall.

    But my point in saying that was simpy this (and I'm going to say this at the risk of being attacked by Catholics reading this forum, but the truth is the truth, and if you are a Catholic brother or sister, I pray that your eyes will be opened):

    That priest in the confessional is looked at by the penitent as God. Period. When you're in that confessional, and the priest is talking to you, it's heard as if God is talking to you.

    That priest is believed to be just like God. Absolutely positively required and necessary for the forgiveness of your sins.

    And the words of the priest during the sacrament are the very words you would expect to hear from God.

    The priest shows himself to be God. He is accepted as God by the laypeople. And his words and actions are what we would expect from God.

    It is an abomination. And yet, so many do not realize the severity of this abomination.

    Think about this for a minute, my Catholic brothers and sisters--imagine for just one moment, that the Vatican did away with the sacrament of Reconciliation. It was no longer required. If you wanted forgiveness for sins, big or small, mortal or venial, all you had to do was pray and ask the Father yourself. How would you dependency on priests and the Catholic church be affected?
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    Re: Is this the temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4?

    Post by michael144/Admin on Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:00 pm

    Which is exactly what the name on the pope's miter means. VICARIUS FILII DEI 666

    In place of the mediator for our sins who is Jesus.

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    Re: Is this the temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4?

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